The Raven Council

(As posted on realm forums: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... =268897553 )

Basically, I talked to Atirian's brother and he told me that he scouts for Atirian when he is on lowbie ganking sprees in Barrens and other locations. His brother helps him pick targets and warn of incoming high level defenders, which in turn makes it impossible to defend the place actively. Now, I'm not sure if you even care but I got the suggestion to post this on your own boards so you may deal with it as you please.

I saw the post on the official forums, and asked him to post here if he ahd a problem with one of our members.

In the realm forum thread, Atirian admits to using two accounts for the purpose of scouting, so the "brother" deal was just a lie (for reasons unknown).

We'll talk about it with Atirian.

At least we must sponsor good world pvp fights as the game is meant to be and not resort to out-of-game hostility. Your whisper conversation sounded pretty hostile to me, not belonging in a game (or at least from an adult).

The insinuation you make with the post's title doesn't fall well with me either. I only know of Atirian playing his horde alt often. Of all the other guild members I only know of one or two who also have a horde alt and don't play them very often anymore.

Icemane wrote:(As posted on realm forums: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... =268897553 )

Basically, I talked to Atirian's brother and he told me that he scouts for Atirian when he is on lowbie ganking sprees in Barrens and other locations. His brother helps him pick targets and warn of incoming high level defenders, which in turn makes it impossible to defend the place actively. Now, I'm not sure if you even care but I got the suggestion to post this on your own boards so you may deal with it as you please.

Icemane wrote:In the realm forum thread, Atirian admits to using two accounts for the purpose of scouting, so the "brother" deal was just a lie (for reasons unknown).

No offence, but who cares? Having two accounts isn't against any rules. It may be unethical but you're free to do the same. As far as I'm concerned, if you're flagged for PVP in the Barrens then you're fair game. Even camping, annoying as it is, is just tough. If it makes you want to cry then 1) log on another character for a while, 2) log off wow and /rl for a time. Chances are you won't be getting corpse camped when you get back. Of course, you could always 3) reroll on a pve server.

Short of having two pc's running side by side, I also fail to see how he can log in on both characters at the same time just in order to see if any horde are coming to stop him killing other horde (which I find hard to believe he'd go to so much trouble).

Anyway; byebye, so long.

This was just a question about underhanded world pvp tactics, not about multiple accounts (although if it is as said in the other thread, that you are using trial accounts for the purpose of scouting our defense, then you may be banned and fined by Blizzard as it's stated in the license agreement that you may not make a trial account for yourself) or ganking as I have no problem with that. As I've been guild leader in the past, I know how hard it is to deal with people who act in conflict with guild interests. I wouldn't want people to say "eh, it's no point in RP/PvP events with that guild, they'll just do this and this" about my guild.

Don't know about what kind of spying has happened, but what I know, Atirian doesn't have any lowbie killing sprees. Has that happened then? As I have never seen her gank a lowbie.

Who is that "you", who you are referring in using trial accounts? Our guild? Alliance in general? If our guild, I am pretty certain you are barking in wrong direction. At least I am unaware of anyone in here using second account for things like that.

Icemane, the Raven Council is a longstanding guild and therefore we take these signals seriously. So thanks for making a constructive post on our forum instead of switching to /rave mode on Blizz's forum.

The Raven Council has it's own PvP-ruleset, which is the guideline for our members:

General Guidelines
1) Don't attack someone who is fighting a mob already.
2) If you see two opposing players fighting each other in what appears to be a fair fight, leave them to their duel and don't interfere.
3) Don't attack someone who is more than 4 levels below you. This is no better than slaughtering deer.
4) Don't corpse camp other players. If they persist in being an annoyance, give them encouragement to leave the area (/shoo for example). If they won't leave, let them rest up fully before re-engaging.
5) Don't gank people while forming up a raid outside an instance. Better still, wait inside the instance so that if other guilds who are doing the same start cc'ing, you don't get blamed for it or dragged into someone elses fight by having to defend yourself.
6) Don't repeatedly "/spit" on someone you have just killed because you are frustrated with them.

World PvP guideline
Restrictions 1) - 4) are less strict during world-PvP (i.e. raids on enemy outposts, RP-events) due to the nature of such events.

Responding to your observations about the tactics involved I do point that is not merely a PvP-server but a RP-server as well. So lorewise it shouldn't be that strange if "It seems that a spy ring inside the Horde tips off smallscale raiding parties of the opposite faction when reinforcements arrive. For all you know these raiders might have been there on a 'grab & bag'-kind of mission, where it doesn't matter if some of the bystanders get killed but where they can't have one of their own caught. This once again states the importance of the rudimentary counter intelligence service of the Horde, so that the spies of the Alliance can be rooted out, or at least kept at bay."

I believe Atirian and myself are the only active members of The Raven Council with a horde and alliances character on DB. And we both have 2 full accounts - not trial accounts.

Pyx wrote:Icemane, the Raven Council is a longstanding guild and therefore we take these signals seriously. So thanks for making a constructive post on our forum instead of switching to /rave mode on Blizz's forum.

The Raven Council has it's own PvP-ruleset, which is the guideline for our members:

General Guidelines
1) Don’t attack someone who is fighting a mob already.
2) If you see two opposing players fighting each other in what appears to be a fair fight, leave them to their duel and don’t interfere.
3) Don’t attack someone who is more than 4 levels below you. This is no better than slaughtering deer.
4) Don’t corpse camp other players. If they persist in being an annoyance, give them encouragement to leave the area (/shoo for example). If they won’t leave, let them rest up fully before re-engaging.
5) Don’t gank people while forming up a raid outside an instance. Better still, wait inside the instance so that if other guilds who are doing the same start cc’ing, you don’t get blamed for it or dragged into someone elses fight by having to defend yourself.
6) Don’t repeatedly “/spit” on someone you have just killed because you are frustrated with them.

World PvP guideline
Restrictions 1) - 4) are less strict during world-PvP (i.e. raids on enemy outposts, RP-events) due to the nature of such events.

Responding to your observations about the tactics involved I do point that is not merely a PvP-server but a RP-server as well. So lorewise it shouldn't be that strange if "It seems that a spy ring inside the Horde tips off smallscale raiding parties of the opposite faction when reinforcements arrive. For all you know these raiders might have been there on a 'grab & bag'-kind of mission, where it doesn't matter if some of the bystanders get killed but where they can't have one of their own caught. This once again states the importance of the rudimentary counter intelligence service of the Horde, so that the spies of the Alliance can be rooted out, or at least kept at bay."

Well, this isn't as much "spying" as it is using game mechanics to your advantage. It's more akin to looking at another person's screen while you are playing Warcraft 3 at an Internet café. There is not much we can do about it (can't kill same faction) and the person will always have the most up to date information as there is no logistics involved in transporting the information from the spy to the attackers.

Also, my warrior alt was killed by Rukia the cat so yes, not only NPCs were targeted (atleast in this particular case). That's why I flew there in the first place. It was then I found that an orc had a pet named Rukia as well and thus I inquired him about helping the alliance and that's how this whole thing came to light. The reason PvP servers limit your account to one side (as opposed to PvE servers who allow both factions on the same account) is that you are not supposed to use tools such as /who and Local Defense channels to gather intelligence on the opposing faction.

Of course as it is a RP ruleset you can justify actions like these by saying it's a traitor and similiar ideas, but in the end this is not a person spying on horde to let his boss know, this is a person who is spying on horde with one of his characters and then acting on that information with another of his characters. Basically "RPing" (not agreeing as I see this as meta-gaming) with himself.

Icemane, you sound a lot more polite in this thread than you did in that whisper conversation.
As a guild, we haven't used this so-called RP spy thing Pyx hypothetically spoke about, so I'm not planning on starting a debate on that thing. All I can say is that we as a guild promote fair pvp fights, hence our pvp policy.

If we ever decide to roleplay having a horde spy, we would ofcourse do it with care and we would have e.g. the horde spy meet with an alliance contact and play that he is giving information in a report of some kind, or whatever.

So, your concerns about meta-gaming regarding our guild are completely unfounded and I can assure you that we will not pursue any meta-gaming in the future either.

The only kind of meta-gaming we've used it for is e.g. when someone's hunting bots (completely un-RPy, but we all hate bots don't we?) and someone from the horde who was unaware of them being bots, decides to come to the rescue and kill the bothunter, we have someone who can tell him that that player was merely attacking bots and not ganking. That has happened only once, since most horde are also aware of who's a bot and who's not and generally assist in the disruption of their practices.

As said before, you're barking up the wrong tree and we're actually behind you if you're against abuse of meta-gaming.

At the end of the day, this is a PvP server and anything goes. As far as I'm aware, Ati has a horde account so he can play horde and nothing more. It's not a trial account to my knowledge and it's pretty impractible to expect Ati to forget all knowledge of what was happening whilst on either character.

This has been blown well out of proportion...

internet, lolz.

my take on it is that if the person really wants to waste money playing both sides then its up to them? some ppl have too much free cash it seems

sick and tierd of ur lies

Basically, I talked to Atirian's brother and he told me that he scouts for Atirian when he is on lowbie ganking sprees in Barrens and other locations. His brother helps him pick targets and warn of incoming high level defenders, which in turn makes it impossible to defend the place actively. Now, I'm not sure if you even care but I got the suggestion to post this on your own boards so you may deal with it as you please.

only reason i said i had a brother because i didnt like the fact that people knew i had 2 accounts. makes some people uneasy.
And stop with ur damn lies.. i Crave 70's Some times i do attack places like spintertree to attract 70's. i spend hrs hunting 70's on azeroth.
Every one in RC knows this. The only time i will run is when im out numberd.

was playing my orc Xroads was being spammed under attacked. so i decided to join in the fun. only to find a druid ganking. i decided to wait awhile shadowmelded see if a 70 comes. not long after some 70's show up
no way i can fight more than 1. so i fled. during such This "person" spots that my orc pet name is the same as atirians.

and he starts moaning about it. i more or less tell him hes an idiot. and i ignore him. he logs an alt. and i ignore him again. then he logs another alt at this time i had enough with hes stupidity i decided to return and try to kill this freak. only to find hes stupid alt taking shots of me lol.

Answer me this WHY the hell do i need 2 accounts to watch for high level horde. Im shadowmelded in town i can see all. USE UR GOD DAMN BRAIN BEFORE WASTING EVERY ONES TIME!

and on top of that you said that you will tell your alliance friends so they could gank my orc. Oh but ofc you didnt want to show that did you. Your a damn hypocrit.

I hope this explains everything. to any one that had questions.

relax man, dont get stressed. take the fact that other people are getting stressed as a bonus.

yeh i know but you try saying that to the mentaly retarded icemane.
only reason why i posted again to clear up any doubts and see the true story. but ofc i got carried away again these little brats make me mad

atirian wrote:yeh i know but you try saying that to the mentaly retarded icemane.
only reason why i posted again to clear up any doubts and see the true story. but ofc i got carried away again these little brats make me mad

hehe yeah gotta hate those little brats im just speaking from experience really, dont let wow make you mad, because really you can hit the person annoying you